Rebuttal
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Posted by:
daw5855 ®

10/29/2009, 11:56:22
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     I would like to ask Mike Finch not to advertise his books on my email.  I am still a student of Mr Rawat.  I only ever got on this forum to see if anyone anywhere still has that Apostles record or tape I could buy.  Mine broke. You guys probably don't want it anymore and I sure do.

     I have numerous things to say about Mike's point of view.  In the very first place, MJ has always said, in the 32 years I've listened, that you can come and go as you please.  I never heard anything else.  I don't see an issue.  He never said he was any Jesus.  He said he was the master, which only means teacher in Hindi, of an experience which is perfect.  And if there were any other such teachers in this time, he didn't know who they were.

     And as far as that house, it's for his family, because he loves them.  Should he house them on Venice Beach in a refrigerator box?  Is that loving?  He's worked harder all his life than almost anyone, and there are sure plenty of idle rich in the world who never lift a finger for anything and no on writes books about them. (Well, maybe communists do).

     I would like to say something else, which is that I don't know specifically who it was, but there were all kinds of so called staff in the 70s who'd block up every aisle in a program, so you'd have to just sit in your seat 'til you'd almost pee on yourself.  Then you'd have to get confrontive to get by them and you'd invariably get insulted.  Maybe some of you left because you couldn't stand each other.  The vibe in the hall would practically snap the muscles in the back of my neck, you guys were so what is the word?, but as soon as you escaped from all the stress, you'd feel so amazingly wonderful and that's still true for me.  The people are much more civilized.  The streesed ones left or grew up.  You have to remember, MJ was only a child when he first came here. And also, he came from a culture which is very innocent and humble.  I've been to India. Here, all our parents tell us, be a doctor, marry a doctor. In all our endeavors, we were taught to take over everything and succeed.  That is just the point of Knowledge, you cannot succeed that way, because it goes the other way.

       All MJs organizations have been countlessly reviewed by the government and come up squeaky clean.  Now he is feeding millions of people through the Prem Rawat Foundation.  I think you need to stand up on your own feet and just leave because you are.  None of your rationalizations are true.  I am concerned you may be taking the chance of some amazing love for new people out there. It is just love, what's so bad about that.?  Anyway it sure as hell beats the dickens out of being forced to be a Christian for 17 years, if you want some true misery.  And anyway, if they want to publish books, I have 2 fab ones about minority teernages playing Nancy Drew, which can't get a nibble, and will probably do the world much more good than slandering someone who rarely ever sleeps with working, some to counter the harm you do. 







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Yes, but rebuttal of what?
Re: Rebuttal -- daw5855 Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Mike Finch ®

10/29/2009, 12:09:48
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Hi Daw

I will let others answer your main points, I will say here two things:

First, my email had a bottom line saying if you no longer want to be on my email address book, then I will remove you if you email me. If you have done that, then you will not get any more emails from me. If you have not, then I don't know your email so you will still be on my address book.

Secondly, have you actually read the book? In other words, is my 'point of view' that you critique actually my point of view that you have gleaned from the book, or simply what you assume it to be? I suspect the latter, but maybe I misjudge you.

I have received a lot of critical and negative email from premies about the book, but in every case so far it is clear the premie has not actually read it, but has assumed what it must be like and criticized *that*.

You title your post 'rebuttal', but are you attempting to rebut the views of the actual book, or merely your own imagination of what those views are? You might in fact be surprised that the book is not exactly what you think it is. In fact, those premies who *have* read it and emailed me, are pleasantly surprised that it was not what they thought it would be.

-- Mike




www.MikeFinch.com


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Re: Yes, but rebuttal of what? sorta OT
Re: Yes, but rebuttal of what? -- Mike Finch Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Jethro ®

10/29/2009, 13:28:44
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"I have received a lot of critical and negative email from premies about the book, but in every case so far it is clear the premie has not actually read it, but has assumed what it must be like and criticized *that*."

This reminds me of when 'Satanic Verses' was published and when discussing it with several Muslims, they made it clear that they had not read because "they didn't have to" (ie they had fatwas(ahya) not to read the book.







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I really don't know what to do first:
Re: Rebuttal -- daw5855 Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Ash ®

10/29/2009, 12:29:19
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*laugh my axx off* (my eyes are surely twinkling and twitching)

or

*puke* (my stomach clearly indicates I should!)

???

I'll let you know when I made a decision.




As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. Albert Einstein
Avoiding a problem does not make it go away, avoiding feeling does not make it go away either. (me)



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Re: Rebuttal
Re: Rebuttal -- daw5855 Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
quirky ®

10/29/2009, 12:43:48
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I would agree with Mike, that you cannot rebut him unless you read the book. I finished it this week and can only thank him for writing it. It is not a book written with the purpose of slamming maharaji. It is a book examining his own life and choices and reflecting deeply on why he made those choices and how maharaji expressed himself to us- at some times the same to all of us, as lord, and later publicly one way (as a humanitarian spreader of peace) and privately still as lord and master. I witnessed and was influenced by it for 30 years. I remember the early 2000s going to Amaroo, to programs for PWKs only and being thrilled that we were going to line up and kiss his feet. An event that was not done in the west anymore but those of us who really knew who he was would get to travel across the planet to line up (and many of us did spend money we did not have to go there to "get darshan" )because it was not available in the west. He was well aware of this double standard and many more. You say that he always said we could leave...but maybe you were not in the ashram only meetings that started in 1979 where he told ashram premies behind closed doors what terrible things would happen if they did not surrender their lives to him...Mike talks about this in the book. How it fueled the dedicated part of a person to give up even more of their sense of free choice. I could go on and on, but I suggest you try to look thru some old journeys and stories here of real people who may have had different experiences than you, and actually read mike's book. I am not going to try to talk you into or out of any point of view, because then I would be just as guilty as those who did the same in the past, including myself, which is only one of my many regrets from that era. And I do not think knowledge has a corner on love or peace, there are many ways to find that.
wishing you well on your journey.
quirky







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Re: Rebuttal
Re: Rebuttal -- daw5855 Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
lakeshore ®

10/29/2009, 12:47:23
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"In the very first place, MJ has always said, in the 32 years I've listened, that you can come and go as you please.  I never heard anything else."

It seems to me, Daw5855, that you may not have been listening very closely.  I think you’re flat out wrong with respect to the above statement of yours.

How about these:

"Receiving Knowledge and not practicing it would be like having all the vegetables in the universe rot in your closet."

"To be with... to be next to the one who is infinite.  Guru Maharaji.  The Lord.  All powerful."

"Receiving this Knowledge and not practicing it would be the worst possible mistake anyone could make in this or a thousand lifetimes."

"Premies who meditate by the clock are pursuing death."

“Receiving Knowledge and not practicing it would be like frying your wrists with 10,000 volts.”

“Leaving the ashram, leaving Guru Maharaji’s shelter, would be the single worst mistake…”

I could go on and on and so could others here with examples of Prem Rawat instilling fear in the hearts and minds of his followers. 

I’d have a lot more to say about this if I had more time, but suffice it to say that leaving Prem Rawat and his Knowledge was always far from optional, free, easy and without severe adverse consequences, and that’s according to Prem Rawat in his very own words.

Could this be a case of selective memory?






Modified by lakeshore at Thu, Oct 29, 2009, 12:47:59

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Re: Hey Dawesy, my sympathies
Re: Rebuttal -- daw5855 Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
ocker ®

10/29/2009, 13:28:15
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Where the hell did you go to satsang? The vibe in the halls where I went to satsang often enough would lift you off the floor as soon as you entered the door. The vibe was so good that I kept going to satsang to the end even though I was completely disillusioned with the Godboy wanker in 1979 and had worked out that Rawat's meditation was taking everybody nowhere. 17 years a miserable Christian another what 10 years suffering with poor bladder pressure anxiety and honcho aisle stress, what a miserable life, no wonder you felt great once you got out onto the street.

Sounds like though that your books are crap not fab judging by the standard of your judgement of Finch's book and especially the level of Rawat's work ethic. "From the East to the West, He takes no rest" was a pathetic joke even in 1974. Rawat is one lazy toad and as for him feeding millions, ou're completely ignorant and severely stupid.







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Re: Latbutter 5585wad
Re: Rebuttal -- daw5855 Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Nik ®

10/29/2009, 13:40:35
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Hey if you're going to have a rebuttal before the argument it's only fair everything should be backwards so for me you will forever be Mr Latbutter Wad.

But typical premie you are (at least typical of the remaining cohort) talking out of your own little bubble where you are so fantastically endowed you know what's in a book without having to read it. There is no slander in Mike's book, it's a statement of observation and insight, it won't hurt you to read it and if you do have ambitions to be an author, spending $19 on a copy could well give you some pointers to improve your own writing - it would certainly underscore the essential "right what you know".

And please lets not have repetions of fantasy -

(1) "Rawat hardly sleeps because of working" - he gives less than fifty days per year to public performance and at most does less than two hours a day in total. In return for his arduous schedule he get five star hotel accommodation and $4 million per year to fund his personal jet.

(2) Master does not 'mean' nor even translate as 'teacher' in Hindi, but that's irrelelevant because Prem, well into adulthood claimed he was Satguru.

(3) "He's" feeding millions of people" - no he's not. TPRF has donated a couple of million $US over five years to some worthwhile organisations - none of that money has come from Rawat, while in the same period over $20 million dollars has gone on Prem's jaunts around the globe.

(4) "India is a culture which is naieve and humble" - but - "every Indian parent wants their child to be a doctor/marry a doctor and take over everything and succeed" - your grasp of 'India' seems pretty peculiar.

N







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He never said he was any Jesus???????
Re: Rebuttal -- daw5855 Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
johnnyboy ®

10/29/2009, 13:44:40
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No - he said he was THE Jesus - and God and Krisna and Buddha and (well you know the rest of 'em).

From your remarks, however, I take it that you were not involved in the seventies when he was God?

There are countless transcripts from M's speeches and satsangs which support this, all his own unedited words, all printed and disseminated by his organisations to declare that God had come in this age to save mankind!

You have every right to disagree with all of this and continue in your devotion to M, but that doesn't take away the recorded truth of it all.  What happened happened and no amount of denial will make the truth disappear.

Some of your comments I find insulting; why?  Because, like the many other souls here, I devoted my life to M without reserve because I also truly believed his message of hope for mankind.  I was never stressed or freaked out at programmes or felt pressurised to stay for the duration; I couldn't get enough.  When a programme came to end I walked away feeling blissed out and high.

You appear to think that we are all wicked spoilers who just didn't 'get it' or something.  That is a gross misconception; the people here are the very same people who devoted their lives to M in humility, giving all that they owned, all the time in their lives, all the desires in their heart for one objective; to bring peace to themselves and the world.

All of the luxury and high living that M enjoys today is financed by the devotion of all the people who post here either daily or occasionally.

They are good people, not perfect people, and certainly not wicked people.

If you are happy to continue devoting your life and your money to a worthless fraudster who has not the power to bring peace to himself, let alone anyone else, then please do so, I hope that you will remain happy.

But please, realise one thing with the brain that you have been blessed with; it is oh so easy to demonise people and yet it is probably the worst human failing, responsible for most of the suffering in this world.

And ask youself one simple question; "Am I justified to condemn a book I have not even read?"

Remember the 'Satanic Verses' and the Fatwah and the hoo ha that ensued by fanatical Islamists who had not even read the thing.  I read that book too and found it entertaining and educational - not worthy of burning!  Certainly not worthy of murdering!!

The truth can hurt sometimes - many of those who post here are still dealing with the pain and disillusionment of discovering the truth about M.  It can take years to come to terms with.

I suggest that you think about the anger you feel and maybe even consider reading Mikes book?

Then you can reach an informed decision as to it's content and how it bears up to scrutiny.

If you could manage to do any of these things - then you would be worthy to make a judgement upon another human beings experiences.

My fingers are crossed.

Kindest - john







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amen brother NT
Re: He never said he was any Jesus??????? -- johnnyboy Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
quirky ®

10/29/2009, 14:00:09
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Re: Rebuttal
Re: Rebuttal -- daw5855 Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
snow-white ®

10/29/2009, 13:49:31
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Hello

What's wrong with Venice Beach? I found it a lovely refreshing place, after visiting Beverly-Hills.

And also, he came from a culture which is very innocent and humble and the moment he came things changed for him, especially after he visited Herods.






Modified by snow-white at Thu, Oct 29, 2009, 13:53:18

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Yeah Snow White - look what happened to Jesus when He visited "Herods"
Re: Re: Rebuttal -- snow-white Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
johnnyboy ®

10/29/2009, 13:59:00
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LOVE IT!
Re: Yeah Snow White - look what happened to Jesus when He visited "Herods" -- johnnyboy Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
karenl ®

10/29/2009, 14:03:14
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I am SO sorry "they" wouldn't let you pee
Re: Rebuttal -- daw5855 Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
karenl ®

10/29/2009, 13:58:26
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Hello DAW5855,

It sounds like your experiences at programs were terrible. Mine weren't anything like you describe. You seem to have a very defined "us vs them" view both of premies putting together a program and ex-premies.

Prem has had well over 30 years to get producing programs right. He still can't. I remember my teacher in Culinary school used to talk about managing a kitchen, "If there are problems, remember, the fish stinks from the head." This means that in any organization the problems come from the very top. Please understand that I am not calling Prem a stinky fish, just his organizational skills. I have never been close enough to tell if he smells. I have only kissed his feet. He doesn't let people close to him. He doesn't let people shake his hands.

Please don't be a hit and run premie. Stick around and debate. Have enough courage of your convictions to really stand up and discuss them.

Karen Kirschbaum

Asheville, NC







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