Honesty, Kindness, Independent Thought
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Posted by:
Will ®

10/23/2009, 14:14:32
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Honesty, Kindness, Independent Thought

These are the values that Michael Finch has gathered for himself, and written about.

They are true and universal, parts of our search for peace and fulfillment.

They are not exactly buzz words in Mr. Rawat's addresses.

As we live our lives we discover what is important to us, we discover our way. 

What we don't need is "somebody to show you the way" and four specific techniques of meditation.





Modified by Will at Fri, Oct 23, 2009, 14:18:34

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an answer to Karen's post and link
Re: Honesty, Kindness, Independent Thought -- Will Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
snow-white ®

10/24/2009, 03:25:10
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For some reason I could not answer it at your post, I apologize, Will for invading your post - which is beautiful/

Karen, that's sick, amazing beautiful people caught up in a lie and in a tent to find their death. New Age charlatanism. And the smug, sleeky face of their Motivational speaker Mr. Ray, says it all.

Thanks for bringing it as a warning.







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Oprah and the Sweat Lodge Guru
Re: an answer to Karen's post and link -- snow-white Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
karenl ®

10/24/2009, 07:44:57
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Here is another good article about the abuses this guy perpetrated.

When three people died and dozens more were hospitalized from the effects of a faux Indian sweat lodge two weeks ago—during a “spiritual warrior weekend” in Sedona, Arizona, for which participants paid nearly $10,000 apiece—a harsh light was cast on the so-called New Age Movement and its greedier entrepreneurs

Prem needs to take lessons from this guy - $10,000 per person!!!. On second thought - NO.

Ray is a handsome, charismatic prophet of profit; during the “warrior weekend”—for which paying customers were required to spend 36 hours in the Arizona desert without food or water—he reportedly offered to sell them Peruvian ponchos for an additional $250 a pop. In early 2007, Ray took over Oprah’s couch for two highly-rated shows devoted to The Secret, a New Age documentary purporting to unlock the mysteries of life and the universe, and show the way to happiness and success

I hope he spends the rest of his life in jail.

Karen





Related link: Oprah and the Sweat Lodge Guru

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Re: Oprah and the Sweat Lodge Guru
Re: Oprah and the Sweat Lodge Guru -- karenl Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Cynthia ®

10/24/2009, 08:26:39
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Hi Karen,

I've been following this story closely. I found this terrific blogger who really gets that this guy is a cult leader exploiting people.

This is a Transcript of the conference phone call Ray did with his followers that were in the lodge with the blogger's comments. There are many other blog entries on the issue and the writer hits the nail right on the head.

I've had the honor of doing sweat lodges with Northeast Woods Indians here in Vermont back in the mid-90s -- Abenaki and Mic Mac Indians. There were never more than 8 to 10 people in the lodge at one time, water was always available, and the elder conducting the lodge was always particularly attentive to everyone, making sure they were okay -- it does get extremely hot in those ceremonies. And, never, ever, is one prohibited from leaving the lodge when they feel overwhelmed for any reason.  It's outrageous that Ray had them fasting (so-called vision quests) for 36 hours without water!!! prior to the lodge.  That alone is criminal.

The other thing is that no money is ever charged by Native Americans because it's a religious ceremony. In fact, they were always on the look out for anyone who might be trying to attend their lodges with the purpose of learning how to do it on their own and charge people money for it. It really angered them whenever they knew of anyone who charged money for Native-style sweat lodges because they considered it just another rip off by Americans of Native traditions.

I hope they throw the book at James Arthur Ray.






Modified by Cynthia at Sat, Oct 24, 2009, 08:33:16

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That was no sweat lodge - it was a toxic oven
Re: Re: Oprah and the Sweat Lodge Guru -- Cynthia Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Bunny ®

10/24/2009, 17:53:44
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Thanks for linking that article and transcript Cynthia, I really appreciate it - there is a lot of worthwhile reading there - it is the most intelligent and comprehensive take on the incident that I have read so far.

I too have been following this tragedy closely. I totally concur with your sentiments.  I also have had the honor of participating in authentic sweat lodges with Native American elders and what we have witnessed with Ray is a complete travesty of that ceremony on all levels.

Sweat lodges are often called earth lodges because they are meant to represent the womb of Mother Earth.  They are made from natural materials of the earth too, porous, breathable fabric like jute.  I was completely shocked when I first saw the picture to see a tarpaulin on the lodge. Not only were the participants suffocated, starved and dehydrated, they were poisoned with petrochemicals.  Nor are they meant to be tests of endurance either; but cleansing ceremonies to help connect with Spirit. 

Ray is posting that he has commissioned a thorough investigation.  That after he ran off to do his 'meditating' and while he puts out that the victims were having too much fun out of their bodies to come back!?

The level of denial and disconnect that he demonstrating is incredible; but that people are still defending him is amazing  I wondered whether this would break him then learn that he is still conducting his events.  And people are still paying to see him.

Wake up people. And lock him up.






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Re: Oprah and the Sweat Lodge Guru
Re: Oprah and the Sweat Lodge Guru -- karenl Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
snow-white ®

10/24/2009, 09:01:18
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I read this article including the comments. Steve Hasan commented too:

HI Steve Hassan here. Just wanted to say that I have been doing a bunch of research since I was interviewed by Lloyd and I would say that Ray's methods that he allegedly used at the Spiritual Warrior program were much more on the destructive mind control end of the continuum than the middle as it seemed to me yesterday. For more, see my BITE model and go through the criteria:
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.
htm

We who were in a cult know the danger of such people. The fact that Ophra promoted such a person is disgusting. In fact, she is a kind of a guru herself. I watched here only once, by mistake, and got so disgusted that I never watched her again. I think she uses people in a most cheap way, under a cover of good intentions, whe causes a lot of harm. I don't have a good word to say about her as a public personality.

Yes, as some of the commenters said, there is no end to people credulity. As for this Ray - he is a criminal, he has to pay!







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Re: Oprah and the Sweat Lodge Guru
Re: Re: Oprah and the Sweat Lodge Guru -- snow-white Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Cynthia ®

10/24/2009, 11:09:41
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I agree with you about Oprah, SW. She started promoting a lot of questionable people, new age and otherwise, in the past few years on her show, and she has placed herself in a position of an authority on spiritual practices by recommending these people to her audiences.  It's especially irresponsible of her to have done that because there are so many people who, as her fans, might get caught up with someone like Ray, who is clearly a cult leader.  Oprah is no authority on spirituality but I really think she has become drunk with her own weath and power, and sees herself as such a leader.  It's shameful, imo.






Modified by Cynthia at Sat, Oct 24, 2009, 11:12:18

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Re: Oprah and the Sweat Lodge Guru
Re: Re: Oprah and the Sweat Lodge Guru -- Cynthia Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
snow-white ®

10/24/2009, 12:17:22
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In the program that I watched many years ago she confronted people who were couples and separated, they have been brought to the studio after not being in contact for years and without their knowledge. There were many scenes following tis and some of them got really upset by the situation.

I have a feeling that she apeals to a low common denominator of people and uses her guests as well as her audience to glorify herself. I have no belief in her good intentions. My brother's wife (living in LA) adores her, I refused to watch her shows when I was there.

Well, as long as she has the rating, she'll have the stage, that's sure.

A similar person in Israel lost his rating and job, as a result he arragned physical attacks on the TV program managers, he was caught and put into custody and there he took his own life. No need to say that the media had a field-day, first with the attacks and later with his suicide.






Modified by snow-white at Sat, Oct 24, 2009, 13:38:21

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Re: Honesty, Kindness, Independent Thought
Re: Honesty, Kindness, Independent Thought -- Will Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Kelly ®

10/24/2009, 07:55:10
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Honesty, Kindness and Independent Thought.

These seem like very solid tenets by which to live one's life and indeed, a very good foundation for a new cul.... sorry..."high demand group" Maybe Mike could be our leader!

Well, you can tell I've finished the book, and what a book. Something of a trip down memory lane with all the pleasure and pain but also an uncompromising examination of the dynamics involved in getting in and out of the cult and what kept us there for so long. Then, more importantly, how to deal with the aftermath of "life without the guru"

I identified with so much in this book as will many others, and I'm sure it will be helpful to those who are currently still in a cult, especially this one, or who are already out and attempting to unravel their involvement.

Thanks for writing it Mike.

Love Karen







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Re: Honesty, Kindness, Independent Thought
Re: Honesty, Kindness, Independent Thought -- Will Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Jasper ®

10/24/2009, 10:27:53
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Thank you Mike!!! I read most of the book in one sitting and it was like watching a movie of what happened while being in the movie at the same time. A little hard to explain but kind of like turning on the flood lights in a dimly lit room. All of a sudden I was able to see things much more clearly. Its a fantastic story told by someone who was really there and exposed to the real danger of it all; but then survived to tell it from the more human perspective of honesty, kindness, and independent thought. Kind of interesting to think that Rawat's world is the exact opposite of this; lies, selfishness, and manipulative control. Thanks again!   







Modified by Jasper at Sat, Oct 24, 2009, 10:40:21

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Will, Kelly, Jasper...
Re: Honesty, Kindness, Independent Thought -- Will Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Mike Finch ®

10/24/2009, 12:48:45
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Hi Will, Kelly and Jasper

Thanks for all your kind words on the book. It is great to get feedback, particularly positive feedback like that - in fact, any feedback at all, really! And even more particularly from people like you three who lived through the same times.

And Karen, Maybe Mike could be our leader is not even a joke - absolutely not, no-way, not in a million years, even the thought of it freaks me out.

Apart from that, what you all wrote was wonderful for me to read - so thank you!

-- Mike




www.MikeFinch.com

Modified by Mike Finch at Sat, Oct 24, 2009, 12:49:40

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Re: Will, Kelly, Jasper...
Re: Will, Kelly, Jasper... -- Mike Finch Top of thread Archive
Posted by:
Kelly ®

10/24/2009, 16:48:50
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I wrote a long reply in which I compared the horrors of the sweat lodge tragedy with our own mindset whilst in the cult..Which you have graphically described in your book...too scary. I won't go into it again beause I lost it. Really annoying but probably no great loss.

Love Karen







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