Dr. Wow, have you listened to the trainings from 1999? Go ahead for a few minutes. I think you will find they echo just what you are talking about.

Marianne

Marianne, I am ready to show you now.

I have your email, but god knows where.

please re post it.

perhaps it could be called the super devotional period?

I think, and this is certainly true for me and many others I know, that this hard on Satguru phase turned lots of people off and which led directly to the 'spaced-out' eighties.  Perhaps it was a combination of things, the turn off of the emphasis that Maharaji made on surrender and devotion as well as the need for many to grow up (as in getting their lives together) as well as simply needing to explore things of the 'world'.  After all for many premies, the whole of the 70s represented a deprived time, what with being incarcerated in ashrams, going to satsang every evening and generally being totally focussed on Maharaji and his whims.

I think that a lot of premies fell away during the 80s period and never returned, some of us were the fools and stayed around, but of course we did not think of it that way at the time.

I also think that Maharaji, or certainly people around him that were able to influence him (limited as that may have been) realised that the super devotional period was a big turn off and this resulted, in part, in Maharaji toning down this aspect to be able to garner new recruits into his cult.  Of course he does not see it as a cult, I think he geniuenly believed and still does that he is someone 'special' and able to help others, mixed in of course with his need to retain his earthly trappings.

T

Whereas I agree that the late 70s was the time when Rawat emphasised devotion, I didn't experience it as particularly dark. Maybe this is because I lived in Leeds, England; maybe it was because I was married and no longer in the ashram; and maybe it was because I actually liked, in a strange way, being yelled at, by the person I thought was the incarnation of God, to devote my life to him.

So for me, yes, I remember an increased emphasis on devotion and surrender from Rawat, but I also remember some crazy but subjectively profound times being a devotee. Could I have lived my life better? - definitely. Did Rawat lie to me? - definitely. Was it all bad? - definitely not. What would have been worse is a life where I never tried to find the 'Truth' - I don't think I would have appreciated the value of the ordinary if I had never thought all value was in the extraordinary.

Anyway, we moved to London in early 1980, and we didn't really fit in with any premie community there, and gradually work and work friends became more important on a day to day level than premies, so satsang being replaced by videos, the closing of the ashrams, the lack of publications/photos/etc., didn't have such a profound effect on me. And when 1987 came with the rejoice events and the revisionism, I just lapped it up.

You know, one thing that was kind of nice about the late seventies was a certain relief we shared (at least Paddy and I did) in that we just kind of gave up trying to merge with the word, "realize Knowledge", become God-realized, however you say it.  It was easier to back off from the fervent effort we were pushed to make in the earlier years.  Now we settled into just being devotee shlubs, kind of.  Our lives revolved not around the cosmic so much as around just being good premies. 

Of course that wasn't by any means easy.  I mean, it might have seemed easy enough but Rawat spent a lot of time explaining to us that no, things were not OK, that our minds were circling us like sharks and we had absolutely no means whatsoever to distinguish Mr. Mind from Guru Maharaj Ji within in inside (??).  We could pray, smile and hope.  Mind you, hope was a bit of a mental trick and an implicit slight on our faith and that smile?  Well with Rawat it was simple: if you had a smile, he might let you keep it.  He might pat you on the head and let you sing another treacly song to him.  However, he was just as inclined to try to wipe it off your face.  You know, a little fear-sang would do the trick, easy.  On the other hand, if you didn't have a smile (perhaps you were just recalling some of the Lord's earlier fear-sang), he'd be more than happy to make fun of you for being so mopey and serious.  Either which way, there were lessons for everyone!

However far from giving up trying to merge I was more into it in the late 70's as my life cirumstances had changed and I had more time to commit to ss&m. But I considered that if you were making the effort (and it wasn't that hard for me as I preferred ss&m to other activites) there was nothing to worry about as the results were out of your control. It seems to be a given in the "spiritual life" as recorded by those who have become famous for their efforts therein that the Grace of God was very very necessary to achieve realisation and I was prepared to let God to his side of the job and I would just concentrate on the ss&m.

While I wasn't part of the gopi scene I respected peoples' differences and appreciated that bhakti was as valid as jnana and I thought that if Rawat and God had a significant relationship all would be revealed in the fullness of time and by golly it was.

Did you live in the USA as a premie?  Did you live in the ashram?  Do I know you? 

No need to betray you anonymity if you don't want to, but you experience sounds very similar to mine.

From what I recall hardly anybody received knowledge in the West after about 1975, but during the dark, devotional period it was very hard to leave, because FEAR became a huge element in the cult, much more so than it had been.  Malibu Prem was basically saying you would go to hell if you left.

Maharaji said specifically and directly that if you didn't have devotion to him you would go to hell in the Christmas, 1979 Satsang, which I believe you can see on EPO.  I actually have a hard copy of it from Divine Times.  So, it was even worse than saying it would happen if you didn't practice knowledge (which is what he "rotten vegetable" threat referred to), but that if you didn't have devotion to him.  Pretty extreme.

Thanks Joe,

Could you give me the URL for that quote? Something as damning as that, should definitely be in the Gallery.

And Hilltop, if you are reading this, could you find any references to falling off Maharaji's boat into the ocean of maya, which is of course full of sharks. That one really got to me.

So much for simply meditating, feeling God's love, and being in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Hi Steve

http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/christmas_satsang.htm

I agree that a scan of that talk would be good for the Gallery. If someone sends it to me I would be most happy to put it up in the Gallery. Maybe Hilltop will see this thread and have a look out for it?  I know he only looks in about once or twice a week.

F8 Gallery

What's amazing is that I was sitting in the room when he said this kind of stuff, including that particular satsang, and it just didn't seem unusal or strange.  The fact the Elan Vital would print that in it's official publication in 1980 just goes top show you that Elan Vital was promoting the same notion, and didn't see any need to tone it down at all.  Everyone knew that Rawat was preaching total devotion to him, and that is you didn't have it, you were in trouble.

So much for Elan Vital's current PR campaign that it's all about world peace.  It makes you want to laugh.

When I say deprived I mean deprived in terms of getting on with doing normal things in the world.  Stuff like getting careers together, making friends with a bunch of people who were not premies, going to a stack of parties, having lots of sex, just getting on with life.  For many of us we were in our 20s, a time when we should really have been doing all that stuff.  However, for many but not all, we spent our time going to satsang every frigging night, being in ashrams, using up all our vacation allowances going to 'Festivals' in far flung places etc

Personally I enjoyed a lot of that, the premie bit and many times had a real blast, doing meditation, having great experiences and making lots of premie friends.  At the time I thought I was so privileged and 'graced', but now see that I would have preferred to just simply have had a 'normal' 20s. 

It was as a reaction to this super devotional period that many premie either left totally or got spaced out, the spacing out (from being full on premies that is) was a good thing as it allowed a lot of catching up to do.

Hope this clarfies what I meant?

T

I agree, Jim is right. I have no idea what premies believe now.

Devotion was a job-description at DECA.  Btw, I think the Poconos program was in  '77 or '78.  I was there, but I'm too busy to look up the year right now.  I know it was quite some time before I moved into the ashram.

The other thing about that period was that many of us DECA premies were much too tired to meditate and that never seemed to be an issue.  He had to know that we were working so hard, and lots of premies attempted to do it, but it didn't seem to work because we were too tired to meditate. Service, in all forms, was the priority, everywhere, it seems.  The only way to obtain that dedicated service from premies was to emphasize him as Lord and devotion to him.

The captain came down with an edict at one point that everyone had to attend satsang at DECA, and leave DECA by midnight(!), unless, of course, our service required us to pull all-nighters.

I'm cynical about this though, because I think all that devotion stuff, specifically and in general during that period, was directly related to the captain's desire to have his jet.  Pure greed.  The focus was on him, him, him, and the reward for all that wreched work we did was the darshan, and all the programs.  Devotion.  Period.

Cynth

I thought Poconos married an Englishman and moved to Europe. Neil Young sang a song about her. And I think it was in the 19th Century, not the 20th.

I think I told the story about flying to LA on a red-eye with my entire ashram from Chicago, and going to the Shriner's Auditorium in LA for Rawat's "birthday celebration."  Anyhow, those were the days when Initiators droned on all day giving satsang, until the audience was suitably bored to tears than when Rawat arrived later, any drivel that came out of his mouth sounded profound. 

Anyhow, I remember some Initiator on the stage giving some dreadfully awful speil, said that "Maharaji touched me deep in the Pocnos."  A lot of people laughed, I recalled.  For some reason it really hit me and I had to leave the room with Pauline Premie, who wet her pants she was laughing so hard.  It was very sacriligious.

Isn't the Poconos some honeymoon place where couples can soak in heart shaped tubs and be deeply touched?

Chuckle chuckle chuckle

I also remember being told when you give your life to Him, He liberates the souls of your ancestors 3 generations back and your descendents 3 generations forwards.

All from from Shri Bob Heywood.

Sure we all dust in feet of...etc etc yada yada

Yes, God blessed the day I first bought the Gita.  What a wonderful turn that was in my life, eh?

Anth, at this point, every small bother and irritation have long since melted from my memory where Europe now glistens like a perfect holiday snow globe.  I keep shaking it upside down and turning it over just to see everything and everyone flying a bit, then falling, slowly, gently back in place.  You and Dot keep landing in Barnes.  Sometimes Dot lands on her feet here and there (tricky in a snow globe) but you, for some reason, always end up lying face up in the middle of the living room floor.  Even though it's a big snow globe, everything's still very small, Anth.  So I couldn't say what it is you're holding.  You do seem to be smiling though.  Well, like I said, everything's very, very small.  Here, I'll shake it again.  That's the fun part.

Why don't you shake it again?

But Rawat dressed up as Krishna!  How were we to know it was all a cultural misunderstnding?

Ah but I was so much stupider then, I'm just as stupid nooooooow.

Thanks for this Mike - from your site. 

" . . . there came a relief and profound joy with the understanding that the universe itself can be my teacher, and that I can find the love, the ultimate, whatever, within myself without needing the grace of Maharaji, or indeed anybody, other than myself."

...This belief system has been pretty consistent from the earliest days till now....

This is quite obviously true, & is the only reason Rawat maintains a following; he's never, at bottom, & however he wraps it up in front of an audience, changed his tune. This was clear to me during the many years when I had no connection with his 'work' at all, & just went to Progs/Events once or twice a year or so, as a spiritual tourist. I could afford to do that then, so there were no conflicts between me & my non-premie wife, but if there had been, then I wouldn't have gone.

The times someone phoned me up to say........''Maharaj Ji's going to be in Barcelona next month, we're going, & if you can make it etc, etc'', but I never could (not Barcelona anyway, Rome was generally ok), so there was a little frisson of disappointment, that's all.

I knew I had the eternal connection is the point. That was always the point wasn't it? So the fact that it wasn't possible for everyone to be in the presence of the lord 24/7, wasn't such a big deal for me, & I suspect for many others.

The beauty of being an Oriental Potentate is that you can burn people up, the better to satisfy your desires. Having burnt up the most committed, all the people who did the ashram thing, especially in the US with the DECA project, you're left with the equivalent of sucking moisture out of a stone.

The stones are the only ones left, & as to why we got into it in the 1st place, a question you didn't ask, but I'll answer it anyway....we fell for a fairground trick.

Why people do that as a regular thing, is something I can't answer.

Great quote. Can you give the reference for it (Divine Times, And It Is Divine? date and page number?)

Thanks

That quote is from Guru Maharaj Ji's Satsang called "The Final Step" at the Shower of Grace, Malibu, California, June 11, 1978.

As printed in the Divine Times June/July 1978, Volume 7, Number 4, Guru Puja Special, Page 36.

I remember the Shower of Grace!! That is a real good quote - says it pretty plain!