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Some quotes about the number of premies up to about 1990
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Posted by:
Joe ®

10/18/2005, 19:09:28
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AGREE?

Guru Maharaj Ji... In 1973 he claimed to have some 7 million disciples around the world, including 60,000 in the U.S. "; pg. 148: "By the time he was twelve, he was making converts by the thousands at his Divine Light Ashram on the banks of the Ganges. That year, 1969...

Petersen, William J. Those Curious New Cults in the 80s. New Canaan, Connecticut: Keats Publishing (1982); pg. 146.

[followers of Guru Maharaj Ji] "By 1973 there were forty to fifty thousand followers called 'premies' in the United States. About six hundred of them lived full-time in the Divine Light Mission communal ashrams, with 300 in the Denver commune. "

Judin, James A. & Marcia R. Rudin. Prison or Paradise: The New Religious Cults; Fortress Press: Philadelphia (1980); pg. 63

"In 1976, the Divine Light Mission cut back its operation until only five U.S. ashrams were operating. The movement was decentralized and democratized. "

Petersen, William J. Those Curious New Cults in the 80s. New Canaan, Connecticut: Keats Publishing (1982); pg. 152.

"Divine Light Mission. The American organization of the Guru Maharaj Ji (b. 1958)... During the early 1970s he attracted extensive media coverage in the United States, but disputes with members of his family weakened his influence.

Crim, Keith (ed.). The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions. San Francisco: Harper Collins (1989). Reprint; originally pub. as Abingdon Dictionary of Living Religions, 1981; pg. 227

[followers of Guru Maharaj Ji] "According to the Mission's own estimates there are presently about ten to fifteen thousand premies in the United States and 1.2 million throughout the world. "

Rudin, James A. & Marcia R. Rudin. Prison or Paradise: The New Religious Cults; Fortress Press: Philadelphia (1980); pg. 66

"The [Divine Light] Mission has reportedly initiated over 50,000 people, but only a few thousand remain in the chain of ashrams that now dot the nation. "

Long, Robert Emmet (ed.). Religious Cults in America (The Reference Shelf: Volume 66 Number 4), New York: The H. W. Wilson Co. (1994). [Orig. source: Article by J. Gordon Melton. From appendix A of The Cult Experience, Cleveland, OH: The Pilgrim Press (1982)]; pg. 90

"The Divine Light Mission grew quickly in the early seventies but suffered a severe setback in 1973 [Houston Astrodome event]. In the late seventies the Mission became a low-key organization and stopped its attempts at mass appeal. Recently, Maharaj Ji quietly moved to Miami. The Mission has reportedly initiated over 50,000 people, but only a few thousand remain. "

Melton, J. Gordon & Robert L. Moore. The Cult Experience: Responding to the New Religious Pluralism. New York: The Pilgrim Press (1984 [3rd printing; 1st printing 1982]); pg. 142.

[followers of Guru Maharaj Ji] "According to the Mission's own estimates there are presently about ten to fifteen thousand premies in the United States and 1.2 million throughout the world. "

"General membership numbers appox. 1.2 mil. worldwide, with 50,000 in U.S. There is a core group of 3000 active members ... "

Palmer, Spencer J. & Roger R. Keller. Religions of the World: A Latter-day Saint View, Brigham Young University: Provo, Utah (1990); pg. 95

"DIVINE LIGHT MISSION: a modern HINDU MISSIONARY movement founded by Shri Hans MAHARAJJI (?-1966) which came to the West in 1971 under the leadership of his son the 13 year old GURU Maharajji (1959-). After initial success and extensive media coverage, the movement floundered due to mounting debts and internal strife. The movement is an offshoot of the Sant Mat, a SIKH SECT strongly influenced by HINDUISM. "

*LINK* Hexham, Irving. Concise Dictionary of Religion. Carol Stream, USA: InterVarsity Press (1994). (v. online 6 Oct. 1999)

The Divine Light Mission grew quickly in the early seventies but suffered a severe setback in 1973 [Houston Astrodome event]. In the late seventies the Mission became a low-key organization and stopped its attempts at mass appeal. Recently, Maharaj Ji quietly moved to Miami. The Mission has reportedly initiated over 50,000 people, but only a few thousand remain. "

Melton, J. Gordon & Robert L. Moore. The Cult Experience: Responding to the New Religious Pluralism. New York: The Pilgrim Press (1984 [3rd printing; 1st printing 1982]); pg. 142.






Modified by Joe at Tue, Oct 18, 2005, 19:12:08

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depends on the definition of 'premie'
Re: Some quotes about the number of premies up to about 1990 -- Joe Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
T ®

10/19/2005, 04:23:49
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If one takes a very strict definition of a premie as for example someone who actively follows Maharaji, always seeks opportunities of 'helping' Maharaji in his 'work', practices the teks every day, keeps in 'contact' and does not hide the fact that they are a premie then the numbers will, imo, be very small indeed.  Probably a few hundred in North America and the same in the UK etc. 

Taking a much broader definition, say one that Elan Vital may use, then hey even I am defined as a premie.  I bet that Elan Vital takes the number of people that are on their various mailing lists (duplication of names probably ignored) as a good indication of the number of premies. By that definition I'm a premie even though I have asked Elan Vital (UK) to take my name of their mailing lists several times over the years. (hey EV UK, do you know that you are breaking the data protection law by repeately ignoring my written and verbal requests?). By this count as well as other metrics that EV may use, for instance the number of people registering for events, then perhaps a few thousand per each major geographical area.  India of course is another matter requiring a different analysis.  Many people have several gurus for example.

I know of many people who use to practice K for a long period of time, but who now no longer do and have generally moved onto other things, although they may still occasionally  go to a Rawat program for old times sake to meet old friends or whatever.  I guess Elan Vital would count them as active premies, but in my mind they are not.

T

 







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Re: depends on the definition of 'premie'
Re: depends on the definition of 'premie' -- T Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Joe ®

10/19/2005, 16:32:56
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Right.  I was defining "premie" as anybody who has received knowledge, and "active premie" as somebody who actually does practice, or goes to an event, or gives money, or does SOMETHING more than just receive knowledge.

I agree that at least from anecdotal experience, there are lots of people who don't practice knowledge, really, on any kind of regular basis, (actually that is probably the majority of "active" premies), but who might show up at some event to check back in with acquaintances.

I was surprised at the number of premies, who I would say are "active" who said they didn't go to the recent Amaroo event, for example, because they were "too busy" or found it financially difficult.  I thought those were strange excuses, given the context of what they claim to believe.

This is a dilemma for Maharaji.  If he becomes too secular the old faithful lose interest.  If he becomes to much "god" again, then he isn't able to get any new members.  It has been interesting to see him waver back and forth as the need arises, as well as his attempts to do both at the same time, keeping the "God" stuff hidden in "private" events like in Amaroo.  Unfortunately, it gets out.







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Re: depends on the definition of 'premie'
Re: Re: depends on the definition of 'premie' -- Joe Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
PatD ®

10/19/2005, 18:25:20
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A premie is someone who thinks he has a connection to the divine/infinity through the mediation of Prem Pal Singh Rawat. There can be no other definition, & how many people believed that either now or then, it's impossible to know.

If he becomes too secular the old faithful lose interest.

Lots of the aboriginals just love the fact that he is so secular. I reckon this was a likely component in the decision to do away with the a ashrams,seeing as there were thousands of disgruntled punters who just couldn't handle that whole total devotion thing, but were still true believers.

The problem he has, is that he has to show up to claim the speaker fees etc...........Nik explained it in a thread below.

If in the highly unlikely event that he ever threw an all comers party for his devotees, in England at least, he'd see some very strange people sitting howling at the moon in front of him.

I was surprised at the number of premies, who I would say are "active" who said they didn't go to the recent Amaroo event, for example, because they were "too busy" or found it financially difficult.

Yeah,I heard that recently about some of the English EV honchos too. Beats me why that is. Maybe it's because they've got too tired to keep up, finally, with the Superman of our time.

Remember when the motivational speaker, sorry, Lord of the Universe, was reckoned to have a greater energy level than the comic book hero?








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There's only one definition of "premie" that counts, IMO
Re: depends on the definition of 'premie' -- T Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Neville B ®

10/20/2005, 08:28:22
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That's the premies who are supplying M with cash. Too few of them and his empire goes into free fall. I can't wait.

Neville B







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Re: Some quotes about the number of premies up to about 1990
Re: Some quotes about the number of premies up to about 1990 -- Joe Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Mike Finch ®

10/19/2005, 04:48:25
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Hi Joe

I think those figures are generally correct. In the mid 1970's we had records that there were approx 50k premies in Britain - 'premie' meaning someone who had been given Knowledge. And I think the same number goes for USA too.

Since then the rate of Knowledge sessions has moved in fits and starts - there were years when hardly anyone got K, and years when lots of people did.

So I would say that there have been approaching 100k people in each of USA and UK who have got Knowledge since 1970, in the sense of learning the Knowledge techniques from Maharaji or one of his appointed lieutenants.

I am constantly amazed when meeting people just how many got Knowledge and are thus in these 'premie' numbers. However, most of them only practised for a very short time, a few days, if in fact at all.

So if you define 'premie' as someone who is active, meaning who practises the Knowledge (ie meditates using the 4 techniques regularly), does service ('helps out') and satsang (watches M's videos or broadcasts) and sees Maharaji from time to time ('keeps in touch'), then the numbers were always much less of course.

And how many are active now? Judging by the numbers who attended the recent large events in USA and UK, not that many.

-- Mike






Modified by Mike Finch at Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 05:04:10

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How do you know, Mike.........
Re: Re: Some quotes about the number of premies up to about 1990 -- Mike Finch Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Lexy ®

10/19/2005, 15:34:24
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..." when meeting people " , whether they are, or have ever been, premies ?

"I am constantly amazed when meeting people just how many got Knowledge and are thus in these 'premie' numbers. However, most of them only practised for a very short time, a few days, if in fact at all."

 Is there a secret handshake only known to an inner circle? ( but then you would only recognise inner circle premies).Do you say " How do you do ? Have you ever heard of Maharaji/ Rawat ?". Can you just tell by the clothes they wear , the vocab they use, their references to " when I frequently visited Miami , 25 years ago",their ownership of a camper van, occasional "slippage" into satsang style monologues, eating organic food that's often brown coloured , from jars with unusual labels on rock hard dark bread ??? How??

Maybe you wear a discreet DLM pin on your tie and people sometimes recognise it ? Have you still got one of those shiney LOTU head badges 1973/4 ( as seen on first page of EPO ) that you can't resist wearing on your lapel now and again and "once upon a time" premies are magnetically drawn to it ? 

How do you deal with the embarrassment, Mike? I'm so curious about these people you meet who you discover ( somehow) were premies. Please spill the (organic  beans and explain what you mean.

                                              

 







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Re: How do you know, Mike.........
Re: How do you know, Mike......... -- Lexy Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Mike Finch ®

10/20/2005, 01:38:06
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Like Joe said below, the topic just comes up in many different scenarios, particularly if you are talking about meditation or anything similar.

For instance, in the very recent past I was talking to a lady who teaches a Buddhist meditation, I mentioned I had been 30 years in a cult, and she told me she had gone to a program at Brighton in the 80's - she had stayed half an hour and left.

Also someone is doing some work for me at the moment, we got talking, and it turns out he got Knowledge in the early 70's, and practised for half an hour or something.

I also met someone recently who told me she had been to India once a long time ago, I asked her where she went, and she told me to this ashram in 1972 that was like a concentration camp. She had flown on one of the jumbos to the '72 Prem Nagar event, got Knowledge, practised while she was in India because she was too frightened not to, but when she got back to the US she never gave it another thought until 33 years later when she was talking about it to me.

So it goes on...

-- Mike






Modified by Mike Finch at Thu, Oct 20, 2005, 10:03:11

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Re: How do you know, Mike.........
Re: Re: How do you know, Mike......... -- Mike Finch Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Toby ®

10/20/2005, 03:30:46
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That makes it understandable why this indoctrination about the dangerous mind was and probably still is so important. All those that left just freaked out and followed their minds. Once you buy into it, the Guru can screw you grandmother through her right ear and you won't bother


toby







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Oh come on, Toby..(sick)
Re: Re: How do you know, Mike......... -- Toby Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

10/20/2005, 04:10:40
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'Once you buy into it, the Guru can screw you grandmother through her right ear and you won't bother'

Toby, I was as brainwashed as the best of them, but even I would have gotten upset at that scenario. My grandmother is dead.






Modified by 13 at Thu, Oct 20, 2005, 04:11:29

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Re: Oh come on, Toby..(sick)
Re: Oh come on, Toby..(sick) -- 13 Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Toby ®

10/20/2005, 04:57:51
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come on don't get into your mind about it!
Perfect Master can do anything, recall her from the grave just for that screw, and of course just to blow your concepts

toby






Modified by Toby at Thu, Oct 20, 2005, 04:59:36

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Sorry
Re: Re: Oh come on, Toby..(sick) -- Toby Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

10/20/2005, 06:18:52
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I must have left room for doubt in my mind somewhere along the way. Oh well, I have had a few concepts blown now.






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Re: Sorry
Re: Sorry -- 13 Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Toby ®

10/20/2005, 08:08:09
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Yeah the master blows concepts away you've never noticed before, unless he mentioned them. That's the magic!

toby







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I mean the concept that he is any kind of master is blown away
Re: Re: Sorry -- Toby Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

10/20/2005, 08:43:33
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I mean the concept that he is any kind of master is blown away. It wouldn't have taken him interfering with my dead grandmother to do it either.

The hypocrisy of his life of luxury, and the stupidity of it (why would anyone with $50 million or whatever it is want such a luxury house (Malibu) plus the others, the jet, helicopters, cars, even the bloody watches - can't he think of anything better to do with the money - even something more tasteful, never mind more beneficial to others!) makes any pretension to a higher consciousness laughable. The playing around between being the lord of the universe and an inspirational speaker as seemed to suit him at the time wrecks any of his claims for authenticity. The claim to have some association with any experience I might have when I meditate is just bizarre, unless he really does claim to be the lord of the universe, which is even more bizarre.

These are the things that blow his case out of the water for me - I don't personally know anything about Jagdeo, and I haven't seen his bullying and drinking and so on, but I still have enough to go on.

Concepts of his authority are well blown, and so we can leave my grandmother out of it, God rest her soul (as opposed to God sticking it in her ear!).






Modified by 13 at Thu, Oct 20, 2005, 11:43:41

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Re: I mean the concept that he is any kind of master is blown away
Re: I mean the concept that he is any kind of master is blown away -- 13 Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
NikW ®

10/20/2005, 14:37:57
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 >(why would anyone with $50 million or whatever it is want such a luxury house (Malibu) plus the others, the jet, helicopters, cars, even the bloody watches - can't he think of anything better to do with the money - even something more tasteful, never mind more beneficial to others!) <

IMO - it is probably wrong to think of Rawat having $millons in hard cash - or even that the obvious assets - houses etc represent face value wealth. Rawat I'm sure believes his own propaganda about being a 'successful investor' yet the evidence for his success is only in the negative - the South American land was a disaster and it looks like even the Amaroo/Myrine scam may only have paid out for Rawat on the back of some unusual accounting practices. Even then he may have had to take a loss to ensure he held onto the Fig Tree Pocket property by hurriedly unscrambling it from the Myrine fiasco.

The real question perhaps is not how much does Rawat own - but how much of the assets that Rawat has use of, are in fact actually owned by banks via mortgages and secured loans. I'd say Rawat was a 'monopoly' investor - buying up whatever square his 'fancy' lands on and paying for it with a mortgage on the previous enthusiasm. That's why he needs to keep with the 'Knowledge act'. If he were to retire - not only would he lose his favourite toys - the GSV and the helicopters but the associated income streams - the personal donations, the giving in kind from the ultra rich lifestyle supporters - would also fall away,  leaving Rawat with little to show the banks that he's good for anything more than a beach hut south of Mumbai.

I don't doubt that over the last 35 years something in excess of $250million at todays  values has been drawn in by the cult and that vast amounts of that have acrued to Rawat personally - but the guy's a waster, not only can he not do something beneficial to others but he is equally incapable of building something more selfishly material that has any lasting impact.

The premies of course say 'he's only human' - but what a sorry example of our species he is.

Nik







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Re: I mean the concept that he is any kind of master is blown away
Re: I mean the concept that he is any kind of master is blown away -- 13 Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Toby ®

10/20/2005, 16:36:38
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Do you know how lucky you are? Let us spend a minute in silence dedicated to the memory of our brothers and sisters that did sell their grandmas.

Toby







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Amen.
Re: Re: I mean the concept that he is any kind of master is blown away -- Toby Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Lexy ®

10/20/2005, 16:50:27
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Yes, it's the stupidity that I notice
Re: I mean the concept that he is any kind of master is blown away -- 13 Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Neville B ®

10/20/2005, 17:46:52
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Any one of us could have told him the futility of gathering watches and cars. But of course, we were always so much more spiritually sophisticated than he was.

Neville B







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Re: And the vulgarity
Re: Yes, it's the stupidity that I notice -- Neville B Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
paddy ®

10/21/2005, 17:23:23
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I recall some poignant times of confusion back in 1975 or 1976 when the young Rawat came to Australia and premies were holed up in all weekend satsang waiting for the LOTU to deign to grace us with his presence and inspiration. After all why else would he travel to Australia but to spend the maximum time with his devotees?

But as pretty well always he didn't show. Later we saw a movie that had been taken of his trip and while we were meditating and "sharing satsang" about the bliss of practising Knowledge He had been going on a Sydney Harbour cruise dressed in a suit so ridiculous and vulgar as to be beyond belief. He showed great bliss while hooning around in a speedboat like the shallowest revhead that all of us had known at least one of in our lives.

Even then I was shocked by the paradox. The premies were "practising Knowledge" rather than indulging in the enjoyable ocean-based pastimes such as sailing and surfing and beach barbecues that Australians revel in (it's their true religion) while young Rawat was reveling in the loud petrol driven speedy lowest form of such fun. These days such pastimes are not allowed within hearing of more innocuous forms of outdoor pleasure.







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Vulgarity and his predilection for speedboats
Re: Re: And the vulgarity -- paddy Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

10/21/2005, 17:58:34
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I met him once on a beach in Spain. He had been whizzing about in a speedboat, and he came to the shore where I was walking. Grace! Turned out he had a house by the beach. I was soon moved on by security.

I sat and watched him for a while, before I got moved on. He had a halo, and then the halo grew until the whole scene disappeared, and all I could see was his face surrounded by light. I was told later by my companion that his mrs was there (I didn't see her at all) and she was heavily pregnant. She was having trouble getting into the boat, and she had looked to me to give her a bunk up into the boat. Well, as I didn't see her, she didn't get any help. My companion was amazed that I hadn't seen her.

At the time, I thought it was magic. Now I just think what a prat, whizzing about in a speedboat. That's no way to enjoy the sea.

I guess that is quite a journey, from magic to cynicism. Funny, but I feel better now without the magic.






Modified by 13 at Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 18:13:19

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Re: Wouldn't that be from magic to clarity?
Re: Vulgarity and his predilection for speedboats -- 13 Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
paddy ®

10/21/2005, 19:11:18
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clarity?
Re: Re: Wouldn't that be from magic to clarity? -- paddy Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

10/23/2005, 06:15:37
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I know I am cynical.

I used to be very sure I was clear. I was clearly wrong then, so I am reluctant to call myself clear now. See, I am even cynical now about clarity!







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Re: Asking possibly embarassing questions
Re: I mean the concept that he is any kind of master is blown away -- 13 Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Andries ®

10/21/2005, 14:03:37
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13, thanks for your post, but why then did you believe in Rawat when his life in luxury war more or less public knowledge? Or did you miss that? How did you think about Rawat's life style then or how did you rationalize his life style away?

(Fee free to ask me a question about my embarassing former faith in Sathya Sai Baba's "materializations" of small objects )

(amended for grammar)

Andries






Modified by Andries at Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 14:04:49

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Embarassing questions
Re: Re: Asking possibly embarassing questions -- Andries Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
13 ®

10/21/2005, 18:11:47
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I missed it! I think I thought he deserved it, because he was the Lord of the Universe. But the money is a small matter. How come I didn't notice that he wasn't the Lord of the Universe??

I am reassured a little by those articles in the New Scientist about fundamentalists. The scientists couldn't find any real difference between the fundamentalists and everyone else, and concluded that anyone could become a fundamentalist if they fell in with the right group. The cult thing is just a group-think thing. Go off on your own (as I did) and the effect of the cult diminishes gradually. Remember the importance of satsang (the company of truth)? You become like the company you keep, therefore it was important to keep the company of premies. If only it had been the truth!

I was blind to the money, despite being around him at times, and me without two pennies to rub together. But I was blind to a lot more too...

So, Sai Baba's materializations! I know nothing about him, except I saw a documentary about him, and he produced a load of ash from a pot - more ash than would fit in the pot! A miracle! How I laughed! Of all the things you might produce by miraculous powers, surely ash must rank amongst the most useless!







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Re: Asking possibly embarassing questions
Re: Re: Asking possibly embarassing questions -- Andries Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
devilsadvocate ®

10/27/2005, 11:21:50
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Hi, i know of a real spiritual master who sat in darshan with Satya Sai Baba while he did his materialisation trick and the master said to his devotee, sitting beside him, "ask him can he produce a macdonalds cheese burger". Funny huh?







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Re: How do you know, Mike.........
Re: Re: How do you know, Mike......... -- Mike Finch Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
OTS ®

10/21/2005, 14:57:37
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I have a friend who was with the or one of the original groups of Westerners to go to the ashram in India and meet the little boy god.  She was with Apter and Whittaker, etc. She got the hell out of there as fast as she could.  Smelled bullshit, even amongst the holy cow crap everywhere.  She's a famous astrologer/political visionary here in the U.S.






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Caroline Casey, right?
Re: Re: How do you know, Mike......... -- OTS Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Joe ®

10/21/2005, 17:27:42
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I think you mentioned that to me before.  In the small world department, I spoke with her at an event sponsored by my local Pacifica station, on which Caroline has a program called "The Visionary Activist."  From what I gather, she combines a new-age kind of sensibility with practical political activism.  Anyhow, she told me pretty much what you did about her brief encounter with the Maharaji cult.




Related link: Visionary Activist

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Re: witty questions Lexy!
Re: How do you know, Mike......... -- Lexy Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Andries ®

10/20/2005, 12:53:20
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You understood that I was teasing, Andries...
Re: Re: witty questions Lexy! -- Andries Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Lexy ®

10/20/2005, 16:07:13
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... but I felt Mike would take it in good part. The underlying question was actually being asked quite seriously and I was glad of Mike's and Joe's informative replies. ( Thankyou)

As I said, there was such a throng of recognisable premies until 1976 ( because of aforementioned DLM badges ,bags ,jewellery etc ) .Even after the early enthusiastic years you could still often recognise premies in the street, on the London tube etc as the guys imitated Maharaji, with for example moustaches, longer  hair which was even permed at one point ( in the earlier days the hippies cut their hair), slick suits, Hawaiian shirts,dark glasses etc and as  the perfect master and his Durga Ji reproduced so did the long-skirted premie " sisters" with first one then two babies, trailed along to childcare.

There must be loads of 50 something " once-upon-a time" premies all over the place , who ,  I thought, would never admit unprompted to the aberration of having been a premie. As I said, I tried casually mentioning my involvement to a few acquaintances and they were embarrassed at the confession.I may try again though.I'm still curious about where all those people disappeared to.

Best wishes to you Andries, and Mike and Joe

Lexy.

 






Modified by Lexy at Thu, Oct 20, 2005, 16:09:43

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Yes, I agree about the number of premies -- very small "active" group
Re: Re: Some quotes about the number of premies up to about 1990 -- Mike Finch Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Joe ®

10/19/2005, 16:26:19
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I always recall we talked about "premies" as people who had received knowledge, and "active premies" as those who at least practiced, showed up for satsang once in a while and might go to the occasional event/festival.

I think even EV says that the number of active premies in the USA is under 3,000 and that only about half that number give money on any kind of regular basis.  Judging from events that have occurred, the number willing to travel any considerable distance to go to an event is also dwindling.  Not surprised, because the watered-down, contentless presentations are not that attractive to people. 

Actually, if Rawat went back to wearing Krishna crowns and giving darshan at every event, like he did in the 70s and early 80s, I bet more people would show up (more of the die-hard, "God in a bod" people).

So, considering that up to 100,000 people received knowledge in the USA since M arrived, a 3% retention rate is pretty pathetic.

And I have also met quite a number of people who received knowledge, especially in the early 70s, who left just about immediately.

But I think you are right.  I don't think the attrition rate has really changed over the years.  It's always been very high, except that now that so few people receive knowledge in any given year (like something over 200 in the USA in 2003 according to the cult's own figures), there aren't that many to fall away, either.







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Re: "God in a Bod"
Re: Yes, I agree about the number of premies -- very small "active" group -- Joe Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
paddy ®

10/19/2005, 18:44:04
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Hi Joe,

I think that the die-hards will go whatever clothes he wears. But Krishna clothes might generate more excitement and that might then draw in more of the fringe premies.

I'm not sure if figures from Austalia can be extrapolated but there are around 500 or 600 pwks in Australia that can be relied upon to attend the most important EV "events". I suspect that less than a quarter of those "do service" and maybe double that many turn up to see Rawat at Amaroo.

In 1978 about 1200 Oz premies went to Kissimmee though that was a real stretch financially and there was a tremendous amount of community hype and co-operation to make it happen. So after 25 more years of Rawatian propagation there are about half the number of premies that there were. I recall there were 20-25,000 people at Kissimmee then so maybe there are 10-1200 premies left out of India or at any rate in the "West".

One thing we can be sure of. As EV/TPRF figures have been based on percentage increases (from a low intial figure) or the multiple counting involved in people who have "heard his message" or the fantastic propagation increases in India then propagation in the West is very poor.







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EV's First Class figures confirm this, Paddy
Re: Re: "God in a Bod" -- paddy Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
JHB ®

10/19/2005, 18:58:39
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EV's figures for Australians attending Amaroo in April 2004 are 501. This is down from the 1997 figure of 1463. The full figures for Australians at Amaroo are:-

April 2004:- 501
Sept 2002:- 969
April 2002:- 1210
April 2001:- 1314
Sept 1997:- 1463

This clearly shows a steady decline. I haven't got the figures for 2005. If anyone wants to send them I'd be grateful.

John.







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Re: EV's First Class figures confirm this, Paddy
Re: EV's First Class figures confirm this, Paddy -- JHB Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
paddy ®

10/19/2005, 21:28:28
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Are you sure those 2004 figures are correct? Well if they came from EV I'm sure they're not understating the numbers but after two years without any Australian programs I would have expected numbers to be substantially higher.

Maybe the John MacGregor publicity had an effect. I think in the past (and I have no figures to go off just a "feeling") that Australians at Amaroo were about 25% which would mean about 750 this year. While there is a definite long term downward trend there are no doubt shorter term rises and falls. I'd better start keeping the figures so I'm not so ignorant in the future.







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Numbers have been dropping since 1996, at least
Re: Re: EV's First Class figures confirm this, Paddy -- paddy Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Joe ®

10/20/2005, 13:53:44
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Actually, I think it was EPO that had the main effect.  EPO showed up in about mid-1997 and has been growing since.  That corresponds to the drop in attendance.  I believe the cult claimed that 8,000 people attended a program in Long Beach in 1996, and that was "the largest" for some long period of time in the West.  I think in 1997 the Long Beach event was smaller, and no event since has reached 8,000 in the West.  Now, they brag about 3,000 (or was it less?) at an event in Miami.

I really do think that EPO has been the major change, which way beyond EPO itself, it just started some fence-sitting premies to perhaps think a thought or two about what they were doing and what they actually believed.







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I like a graph
Re: EV's First Class figures confirm this, Paddy -- JHB Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Neville B ®

10/20/2005, 08:24:24
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Uploaded file
Premies_at_Amaroo.JPG ( bytes)  






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Lies about retirement homes in Amaroo
Re: EV's First Class figures confirm this, Paddy -- JHB Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Jean-Michel ®

10/21/2005, 02:44:52
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I read that story here not so long ago.

This is not a new story, and Rawat already used to talk about this 20 years ago with instructors and organizers, and like so many grandiose projects never took place.

The truth is that it's not feasible for a very simple reason: as a foreigner, you need a visa to be allowed to stay for more than a few weeks in Australia, and such visas are extremely difficult to get. They're usually given for business reasons, if you have an employer in Oz, and usually only to international companies having foreign employees there.

Getting a visa to retire there is a dream that will never come true, Australia has a very strict immigration policy.

He's talking about this to keep some of the remaining lifers I guess, giving them some hope ..... None of his previous plans ever manifested, that one never will of course.

What may happen is that some very wealthy premies will give a lot of money to have a barrack there (like what happened in India), where they'll be allowed to come if the master allows them !

That will be (if it manifests) someting like vacation camp barracks for retired wealthy premies. What a joke !

 






Modified by Jean-Michel at Fri, Oct 21, 2005, 02:48:30

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How do you know they are premies, Joe?
Re: Yes, I agree about the number of premies -- very small "active" group -- Joe Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Lexy ®

10/19/2005, 20:24:56
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"And I have also met quite a number of people who received knowledge, especially in the early 70s, who left just about immediately"

How does the subject creep into the conversation ? I have sometimes wondered how many people I have met who went through the " knowledge" ritual . Mostly I'm just too embarrassed to talk about it even if I suspect the possibility that someone was one ( rare).

I did see a guy a few days ago on the T.V.(on one of those " antique" shows  where the presenters go into peoples houses and find their hidden treasures) who absolutely looked and behaved like he had once been a premie ( and had never really recovered).Maybe I recalled his face without knowing who he actually was?

Nobody has ever asked me ( that I didn't already know) if I used to be a premie.

A few months ago I went through a ( brief) phase of telling a few people I know that I once belonged to a cult ( a kind of " coming out" ). They were full of incomprehension really and changed the subject as soon as possible, never to be referred to again.Too much information I suppose.

There seemed to be so many premies in the seventies. In those days they wore badges or carried their belongings in a cotton "Ally Pally Guru Puja" shoulder bag (  and so did I . horrible things...even Elvis can't have sold so many souvenirs in such a short time) and London was crawling with them!

 






Modified by Lexy at Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 20:40:15

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Re: How do you know they are premies, Joe?
Re: How do you know they are premies, Joe? -- Lexy Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Joe ®

10/19/2005, 22:56:53
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Some of them I met when I was still a premie, and doing something which made it obvious I was a premie, like being a community coordinator or something. 

But I can recall a number of occasions running into people who once were premies for like 15 minutes.  I remember one time being in a restaurant with my friend Joy and we just mentioned something that the waiter overheard, and he was one of those "15-minute" premies.  I also recently got a massage from a guy who turned out to be the same.  It just seems like if you run into people in that way, there must be a lot more of them -- and there must be since 97,000 out of the 100,000 in my country have pretty much split from the cult, if they were ever in it in the first place.






Modified by Joe at Wed, Oct 19, 2005, 22:57:58

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Question regarding numbers receiving knowledge
Re: Re: Some quotes about the number of premies up to about 1990 -- Mike Finch Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Joe ®

10/20/2005, 12:10:22
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I know lots of people received knowledge up until like 1976 or so.   Then, at least from my experience in the USA hardly anybody received knowledge for the next 6 years or so.  That was especially true in 1978, 1979 and 1980.  Tiny numbers received knowledge.  I recall in one community where I lived during that period, a very large US city, there was a handful of "aspirants" (maybe 3-4) who came to satsang all the time, for years, but never received knowledge during all that time, because there were almost no knowledge sessions..

So, I wondered if you knew whether in  any years after 1983,  large numbers of people in the West received knowledge.  And by large, let's say more than a thousand in a country like the US or the UK, although in the scheme of things that's also pretty small.  It's very clear hardly anybody has received knowledge in the west since 1995.  I remember the number in 1997 in North America was 77 and in 2003 it was about 200.

My impression from looking at who are premies now, and by that I mean premies who might go to an event, is that they are largely a middle-aged group who received knowledge in the 70s.  So, either not many people received knowledge after that in the West, or the vast majority of them left.






Modified by Joe at Thu, Oct 20, 2005, 12:39:09

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Re: Question regarding numbers receiving knowledge
Re: Question regarding numbers receiving knowledge -- Joe Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Mike Finch ®

10/20/2005, 13:44:28
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Hi Joe

Yes, my memory of 1978 to early 80's is the same as yours - hardly anyone got K.

But it picked up considerably in the second half of the 80's and through into the 90's. M started giving K himself, and after a little while he really got into it - he had K sessions quite often, and some of them were big. Then he let instructors give K again, at first only Belkis and Charnanand, then others.

So my guestimate is still 50k each in US and UK to about 1975, and then in the 30 years since probably another 50k - or OK, perhaps 40k - who knows (or cares), but something of that order. 30k would only be 1000 per year, and while some years were thin, as you say, some definitely were much more than that.

-- Mike






Modified by Mike Finch at Thu, Oct 20, 2005, 13:47:05

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Yeah, but how many?
Re: Re: Question regarding numbers receiving knowledge -- Mike Finch Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Joe ®

10/20/2005, 13:49:25
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My understanding is that the cult was almost completely dead for a few years after I left in 1983, until the late 80s, when Rawat did those "inspire" events, something like that, and some people came back.

But, still, when you say M gave knowledge and that some sessions were "quite large," how many are we talking about in a year?

And if a lot of people received knowledge then, how come it dropped to almost nothing after the mid-90s?







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Re: Yeah, but how many?
Re: Yeah, but how many? -- Joe Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Mike Finch ®

10/20/2005, 14:19:42
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Hi Joe

You are meaning the Rejoice events.

...and some people came back.

I am not talking about active premies, those who 'came back'. I am talking about people who simply got K - 'premies' in DLM/EV's definition as people who learnt the 4 techniques of K in M's agya, meaning either from him personally or from one of his instructors.

M's sessions that I attended in mid 80's to 90's were often 40 or 50, sometimes bigger, and for some periods he was doing them every week or so.

Why did it drop after mid-90's? I don't know. If I were to guess, I would guess it is just because he got bored doing it - he was even then talking about making giving K 'automatic', meaning K being given by DVD or video.

I would also suggest that those who did get K from that era were not that useful to him as far as cash donations went. Once that era of ashrams was gone, and the whole vibe that went with it, you lost that pool of dedicated premies who wanted to surrender all their money to the Lotus Feet.

I am not suggesting that M regards Knowledge only as a cash cow - I think he does believe he is the Perfect Master, and that he has an altruistic motive in giving K - but I suspect monetary income comes into the calculation somewhere.

-- Mike







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Re: Yeah, but how many?
Re: Re: Yeah, but how many? -- Mike Finch Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Joe ®

10/20/2005, 14:32:10
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I know you aren't talking about premies coming back.  What I was referring to was that dead zone period that lasted from when the ashrams closed, a period in which Rawat supposedly wanted to, or considered, quitting, until the late 80s, when some of the premies who had orbited away, got involved again, so that propagation was even possible.

So, I guess in that 80s-90s period we are still talking hundreds and not thousands, right?  I guess it's all relative..

I think one of the key issues is how difficult or easy it was to "get knowledge"  at an;y given time.  In the early 70s, people received knowledge fairly easily and thousands did, and there were lots of Mahatmas, etc.  Goingo satsang  a couple of weeks, or even just a day, and  that was enough.  When I received knowledge in 1973, one-month of satsang was suggested.

Then, in the late 70s, during the "devotion and surrender" period, it became very, very difficult to receive knowledge, and those who did pretty much had to dedicate their lives before they could even get it, so very few people did.

What was the criteria to receive knowledge until the mid-90s?

One of the differences, I think, was (and I was surprised to hear this in 1997), was that people started to get knowledge through a video, and then a DVD.  That isn't very attractive and tends to turn off the people who are looking for something spiritual, from a teacher.  And that is what has happened since, from what I understand, now under "the keys" program.

I also believe that one of the things that happened in the late 90s was EPO, and a climate ind which the negatives about Maharaji and knowledge, and just recognition that there are a bunch of former followers who are not interested in continuing to follow Rawat, and have strong criticisms of him.  Also, his past started to get exposed, via the internet.  All that is very powerful, and something that hadn't occurred before.






Modified by Joe at Thu, Oct 20, 2005, 14:36:43

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Re: Yeah, but how many?
Re: Re: Yeah, but how many? -- Joe Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Lexy ®

10/20/2005, 16:28:20
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I was a reasonably active premie after the ashrams closed.Introductory programmes, and Aspirant and Knowledge sessions never stopped as far as I remember.It all rumbled on just the same throughout the eighties and early nineties ( if somewhat falteringly) with Maharaji attending programmes every now and then.....whether in London or Paris.My memory tells me that quite a few people received Knowledge in both cities where I lived. I knew a few of them and I'm just one person. I've no idea how many...a steady trickle anyway. IMO More than you think , Joe. 





Modified by Lexy at Thu, Oct 20, 2005, 16:29:45

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A steady trickle
Re: Re: Yeah, but how many? -- Lexy Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Joe ®

10/20/2005, 17:22:10
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I think it's interesting that nobody seems to know.  And I gather you agree with Mike that everything came to a screaming halt by the mid-90s, and even the "steady trickle" kind of dried up.  Why do you think that happened?

But I do recall almost nobody receiving knowledge from about 1977-1983 or so.  Very few.

BTW -- are the people who received knowledge int he 80s and 90s still around as premies?







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This numbers game is so bizarre!
Re: A steady trickle -- Joe Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
JHB ®

10/20/2005, 17:47:27
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Reading this thread I was trying to find something comparable, and clearly attending some class of a normal teacher wouldn't do, as an initiation is part of Rawat's teaching. I thought of learning to drive, with the driving test as the initiation, but that didn't work as you can pass or fail a driving test, but no one is ever tested on how well they meditate. So what is there that we can learn, but there is no measure afterwards on how well we have learnt it? Sure, there are loads of evening classes without any examinations - I attended one on social psychology about ten years ago - but no one counts how many of the students still believe or follow what they were taught.

The only thing I can think of that is comparable is joining a religion, with the measure being whether one still believes. Even then, without public records of who joined the religion, it's impossible to do a statistical analysis to determine how many still believe. So the only measure we have is attendance at religious services. For EV, these are events with Rawat (after all, he does ask his students to come and see him), and even these figures EV don't publish, well not publicly! By this standard, the Rawat religion is in freefall. The Rawat business will of course continue as long as there's sufficient cash coming in.

John.







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Re: A steady trickle
Re: A steady trickle -- Joe Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Lexy ®

10/20/2005, 18:47:54
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"But I do recall almost nobody receiving knowledge from about 1977-1983 or so.  Very few."

There were regular knowledge sessions in London during these years.My ex-hubbie received K. and a few other friends.Lots of programmes including several in Rome ( inc. a big Holi ) all very well attended.

I had a "knowledge review" in a knowledge session in London( around 1981)....where  there were about  12 others being "initiated" with the secret techniques...a Taiwanese "initiator" called John. There were always aspirants around at satsang in the various ashrams.However ,it's true that there was no comparison to the frenzied explosion of knowledge-giving to the hordes in 1973/74.

I know a couple of premies who still go to see Rawat who received k. in the eighties...but they have never been die hard devotees, like we were

                                                    

It became more peaceful and civilized.

I was in Paris in the early nineties and people were still receiving k. By then there was little dogma, as far as I could see ( how could there be when certain inter-continental roving instuctors couldn't keep their mitts off the pretty aspirants ) just meditate for an hour, "keep in touch", and carry on with your life as normal....oh and donate probably.  






Modified by Lexy at Thu, Oct 20, 2005, 19:00:20

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Re: A steady trickle
Re: Re: A steady trickle -- Lexy Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Joe ®

10/20/2005, 19:59:29
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I was in Paris in the early nineties and people were still receiving k. By then there was little dogma, as far as I could see ( how could there be when certain inter-continental roving instuctors couldn't keep their mitts off the pretty aspirants ) just meditate for an hour, "keep in touch", and carry on with your life as normal....oh and donate probably

I wonder how these "no dogma" people would react to going to Amaroo and singing Arti, or having a darshan line, like has happened repeatedly there.







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Amaroo, Arti and Darshan.
Re: Re: A steady trickle -- Joe Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Lexy ®

10/21/2005, 08:16:24
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"I wonder how these "no dogma" people would react to going to Amaroo and singing Arti, or having a darshan line, like has happened repeatedly there."

I used to wonder similar things even at the time, which was pre-Amaroo. I knew that sooner or later these early nineties aspirants and new premies, who had been protected from the worst excesses of devotion,  would come across some confusing and contradictory antics and conversation from premie friends or at big events....or watch an old video or something.

Actually , of course there were always those who would be attracted by the devotional aspect. I was/ would have been, and it ( overt devotion) was the thing that surrendered my  ex-husband in the early eighties.

 

 








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Re: Some quotes about the number of premies up to about 1990
Re: Some quotes about the number of premies up to about 1990 -- Joe Top of thread Forum
Posted by:
Andries ®

10/21/2005, 13:46:42
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According to the Dutch religious scholar. Dr. Reender Kranenborg, Elan Vital's presence and existence in the Netherlands is uncertain because of dwindling membership.

(What Kranenborg asserts is untrue. Elan Vital has members in the Hague and Amsterdam, as I know from personal experience and investigation.)

Kranenborg, Reender (Dutch language) Neohindoeïstische bewegingen in Nederland : een encyclopedisch overzicht (En: Neo-Hindu movements in the Netherlands, published by Kampen Kok cop. (2002) ISBN 9043504939

 







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